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Transcript – Skills for Co-Creative Relationships

by | 18 Nov, 2022 | Collaboratory Podcast, Resources, Transcripts

To ensure accessibility we are committed to providing transcripts of all our podcast episodes, including our short trailer for Season 1 – you can listen to the audio version here.

Episode 8: Skills for Co-Creative Relationships

[00:00:00] David Lilley: I couldn’t have learned what I’ve learned by listening to other people or reading it in a book. It’s just not possible. What I think we can do is prepare people, support people to get through things much quicker when we’re confronted with them. It helps to have ideas, concepts, perhaps a bit of literature, but really you’re going to improve when you’re doing it, when you get a sense of how things play out in the real world.

[00:00:32] Nicole Deen: That’s David Lilley, one of our guests in this episode of Collaboratory, which is all about the skills needed to support co-creative relationships and how people learn them. I’m Nicole Deen.

[00:00:43] Maya Haviland: And I’m Maya Haviland. As we’ve researched what it takes to scaffold co- creativity in different settings, we’ve asked lots of people what they see as the most important skills and capabilities for facilitating co-creative processes.

And in this episode, we are bringing a range of their answers together.

[00:01:06] Dimitrios Papalexis: I feel the first point should be around the mindset and the model of working.

[00:01:11] Anni Davey: Adaptability is important.

[00:01:14] Diana James: Being flexible, being able to see new ways through old systems. If the systems don’t fit, adapt them. Personal aspects are very much about being a listener. Being someone who’s very good at listening.

[00:01:27] Rebecca McNaught: Improving approaches to dealing with conflict, facilitating interactions between diverse actors.

[00:01:34] Tirrania Suhood: Recognizing our difference and valuing our difference and being aware of it.

[00:01:39] Kim Cunio: We need a skill to develop positionality. We need to be able to find out who we are, why we are who we are, and to be able to communicate it clearly to others without causing offense.

[00:01:50] Anni Doyle Wawrzynczak: Getting a good handle and an understanding on yourself so you’re not caught out by yourself. Listen more than talk.

[00:01:56] Michelle Halse: Self-awareness, facilitation approaches and methods, negotiation, advocacy, effective communication, synthesizing lots of complex information into some sort of simple ideas and just plain old curiosity and imagination.

[00:02:13] Doyen Radcliffe: I think the ability to be a good listener, I think that’s very important. Not making assumptions about anything. Just don’t rush stuff. Work at the community’s pace.

[00:02:22] Sharon Babyack: I think a good sense of humour actually is really important. Perseverance, dedication, and resilience.

[00:02:29] Maya Haviland: Listening to all these perspectives, it’s clear that there are some specific learnable skills that people think are really important, like conflict resolution or methods for facilitating groups, as well as mindsets or approaches to working with others that may be a little less tangible or teachable.

Now if you wanna know the names of all the people whose voices you hear in this episode, we will include a full list at the end and in the show notes. But for now, let’s meet three guests who we’re gonna hear a lot from, who each have learnt the art and science of co-creativity through quite different forms and practices.

[00:03:05] Johanna De Ruyter: My name’s Johanna De Ruyter, and I guess really you could call me a collaborator. A lot of what I’ve done over the years in the various forms I’ve worked in is to collaborate in theatre. That’s really what I draw on a lot in terms of collaboration and where I learned some key premises and principles, practices to collaborate.

[00:03:32] Nicole Deen: Johanna is a coach and facilitator who works with individuals, groups, and organizations to enhance communication and connection informed from her many years of practice in storytelling and improvisation. Our second guest also has roots in the art of storytelling.

[00:03:49] Callie Doyle Scott: My name is Callie Doyle Scott. I am a writer, gamer, amateur historian, and game designer.

I’ve been designing games for over 13 years now in various capacities, all to do with tabletop role playing and interactive narrative experiences. At present, I would call myself a freelance writer and designer, which means I get to take part in a lot of interesting projects across Canberra and internationally as well.

[00:04:24] David Lilley: My name’s David Lilley. I have a few different roles at the moment. I’m a full-time PhD student doing a PhD in public health, public policy, and urban environment. I also work as a consultant with Collaboration for Impact, supporting particularly place-based initiatives and other initiatives involving community around the country.

[00:04:47] Nicole Deen: David Lilley’s work in communities and urban spaces has made him aware that the application of practical skills are underpinned by mindsets and the approaches we take to working with others.

[00:04:58] David Lilley: I genuinely think of all of this as being really about a way of being in the world because it is. It’s about your personal relationships, it’s about your values, it’s about your practices around learning and reflection. It’s about how you do that with others. It’s about how you search out those relationships if you don’t have them and you need them.

I’ll start by making the distinction between if you like mechanical thinking and systems thinking. So I think mechanical thinking is that the engineering view of the world, no disrespect to engineers, but that idea that all the pieces are neat and tidy and you just need to put them together in the right way.

Essentially, it is about analysing things, breaking them down, and figuring out how they fit. Whereas I would talk about systems thinking as being the opposite. It’s about how things join up, how they relate, what the ripple effects of them are. So you’re thinking about the dynamics that you create within and between initiatives.

I think that what most people mean when they talk about systems change and then systems thinking is they think about very specific concrete systems, we will change the education system or this particular component of it, or the health system or this particular health service. So they’re thinking about a specific entity and I think that’s radically different.

You can bring a very traditional sort of mindset to thinking about an entity. You can’t bring a traditional mindset to systems thinking being about connections and relationships. It’s not being fixated on the tidy little pieces that in theory should fit together, but thinking about how the real world works and the interrelationships between the people, initiatives and the organizations.

So it’s a way of looking at and acting in the world, if you like. It’s a mindset or a worldview. I don’t want this to sound overly deep, but really it’s a way of being in the world.

[00:07:01] Nicole Deen: The importance of flexible mindsets and attitudes to shaping how we approach collaboration has been stressed by many people we’ve spoken to, including Rebecca McNaught and Emma Blomkamp, who both feature in the episode called Laying the Foundations for Co-creation.

[00:07:17] Rebecca McNaught: Sometimes it’s a shift in owning our own mindsets and perhaps stepping outside of our comfort zones and embracing a broader approach rather than seeing, you know, interaction with others as incredibly challenging. Perhaps it can help us achieve our own goals and aims.

[00:07:38] Emma Blomkamp: It’s how we approach the work. It’s how we are, it’s how we are together that really matters and that influences how we will use tools and respond to them as well.

[00:07:49] David Lilley: Probably one of my great frustrations with this world of collaboration is that so much of it can be turned bookish. And I’m doing a PhD. I love reading, I love theory, but ultimately this comes down to a desire to do good in the world, a willingness to adapt yourself so that you can do the best job of that possible, and then the relationships that enable you and others to do that sort of work in a mutually supportive way. I think that’s not the typical way that people go into talking about this work. Do you understand the IAP2 spectrum?

Do you have a particular method for this? And all of those things are good and important, but the personal commitment, mindset, willingness to engage, to adapt, to reflect is far more important to me.

[00:08:41] Anni Doyle Wawrzynczak: Looking, observe what’s going on around you. Keep your eyes open, ears open, heart wide open. Keep your heart actively waiting to receive and to give.

[00:08:57] Sharon Babyack: It sort of ties in with patience. There is a level of determination that’s required, particularly I’ve noticed resilience.

[00:09:04] Michelle Halse: If you’re listening truly for that sense of empathy and newness, then that’s about how open minded you are, open minded and openhearted, and also how willing you are to step into being part of the thing that’s needed.

[00:09:20] Maya Haviland: That’s Michelle Halse and before her, Sharon Babyack and Annie Doyle Wawrzynczak. All three describing an attentive openness they see as an important orientation to be able to respond to the collaborative situations that you find yourself in. These orientations and approaches often get labelled as soft skills, the behavioural and relational skills that shape how we work with other people.

The label soft can play down the value of skills like adaptability, open mindedness, and emotional perception. But research repeatedly stresses that these so-called soft skills are the most transferable between different kinds of work, and indeed are the core skills needed for workers of many kinds as we deal with the impacts of automation and artificial intelligence into the future.

A few years ago, I was involved in an educational project that sought to cultivate some of these so-called soft skills in people training to work in cyber security. Skills like communication within teams, empathy, emotional perception, and ethical judgment. One of the outcomes was the creation and testing of a tabletop role play game called Logic Error Detected, which was designed and written by my next guest.

[00:10:35] Callie Doyle Scott: Hello everyone. My name is Callie Doyle Scott.

[00:10:39] Maya Haviland: Callie has a very particular and potent set of co-creative skills cultivated through many years of running tabletop role play games as a Games Master or GM. For those of you unfamiliar with what a role play game is like, I’m gonna play a little bit of a podcast called Reimagine STEM, which features Callie and the Logic Error Detected game.

[00:11:05] Callie Doyle Scott: It is a pleasure to meet you. I am Micah, a massively intelligent, calculating automaton in charge of managing the All Life Rehabilitation Centre. In order to further explain today’s exercise, I will now play an excerpt of a promotional film. Please listen closely.

Located 500 kilometres off the Eastern coast of Australia, the All Life Rehabilitation Centre represents the next step forward in National Border Protection, designed to protect our country from threats both domestic and international. By participating in the program, even the worst of, offenders, from career criminals to illegal immigrants can reinvent themselves as model Australian citizens. While my processing core is state of the art, I find myself unable to resolve certain conflicts and make certain judgements without input from an outside source. In order to fix this operating error, you have been selected from among your peers to assist me in developing a moral and ethical framework that I may draw upon to assist me in the running of the centre.

[00:12:09] Kiara Bruggeman: Essentially, a small group works in real life together to ethically train the AI played by Callie in a scenario which has life and death implications for thousands of people. The answers the group give to a set of simple questions teach the AI how to handle future decision making. The game’s intention is to demonstrate the subtle challenges of the task, but it’s also about challenging our own daily automatic decision making and assumptions around ethics.

[00:12:38] Maya Haviland: That’s Reimagine STEM host Kiara Bruggeman explaining how this particular game worked. You heard Callie before her performing as Micah, the artificial intelligence automaton that is the main character in Logic Error Detected. As Games Master Callie is running in real time a process of rich co- creativity where she introduces and facilitates groups of people as they navigate through imagined worlds making choices in response to the Games Master’s prompts that shape the way the story unfolds.

So what skills are needed to facilitate the particular form of co- creativity that is tabletop role play gaming, or what Callie calls a collaborative storytelling experience?

[00:13:22] Callie Doyle Scott: GMs need to be empathetic. They need to be able to keep a keen read on a group full of players, whether that’s two players, whether it’s eight players.

Empathy is extremely important. You need to know when you are pushing your players too far. You need to know when you’ve touched on something that sparks their interest so you can expand upon it. You need to make sure you know when people are getting bored so you can include them. You need to have excellent crowd control ability.

You need to be able to keep an awareness on the entire room, even if you are focusing on one person so you make sure nobody feels excluded, but you also need to make sure that nobody interrupts what’s going on. You need to be exceedingly good at improvisation because no matter how carefully you plan a session or a game, someone is going to do something you weren’t expecting and that is beautiful.

You want that to happen. You want to be able to indulge that, but you need the improvisational chops to be able to run with that, whether that’s you running on the fly as though nothing’s happened, as I can do after over 13 years of doing this, or whether you say, I’m sorry, I’m breaking character for a moment, I need to think about what happens. You need to be able to do one of those two things.

[00:14:58] Maya Haviland: Obviously Callie is talking about the specific facilitation work of being a Games Master, and it does have some unique particularities. But as I listen to Callie, I’m struck by how much of what she is describing are skills of relevance to the work of facilitating any group collaborating on an emergent process, like leading a planning process or even being a teacher.

[00:15:21] Callie Doyle Scott: You need to be patient. Very patient. It requires a lot of work to GM. It requires a lot of prep work to GM, whether you are writing down page after page of notes or whether you are thinking of things the moment before the game happens, as some people do. You still need to put in the work to make this story or else you are going to be serving up a subpar story.

You also need to be patient with players. You need to be able to teach them the system if they’ve never used it before. You need to be able to coax them through delicate emotional moments. If the story gets too hard, if a player decides that they don’t like the direction their story is going, you need to sit down with them and help them find another way through.

And you also need to be able to put your foot down when it matters. As the GM, you are the final arbiter of the law. You are God in this world, and you need to be able to say, you’ve done all you can, this is what happens. Or if a player is making trouble for other players, you need to be able to work out their problems and make sure everyone can play harmoniously or you need to be able to say leave, which is hard to do.

Trust is paramount. Everyone working together is paramount. If you have a good group and you’re just playing for yourself for fun with other people, you need to know when to ask for help from your players if need be. But most of all, as a GM, you need to have the best interest of your group at heart. The GM has a lot of power.

You are the one providing the direction of the story. You need to be able to make sure through a combination of everything that I’ve talked about so far, that everyone is both immersed and having fun, and that includes you as the GM. If you are burnt out or not enjoying the story, it’ll show, it’ll bleed through into what you are doing.

The players will lose interest, or if they’re a good group, will worry that they’re doing something wrong, which will affect everyone. So you need to be passionate about what you’re doing. You need to care about what you’re doing deeply, and you need to know when to stop before you get burned out.

[00:17:57] Maya Haviland: A thread that runs through many of the skills of a Games Master that Callie has described is the power of thinking and responding in real time, being able to listen and respond creatively to what is emerging in a group and in the story. Johanna De Ruyter is a long term practitioner of forms of improvised theatre. Another kind of storytelling that requires this kind of generative, responsive listening.

[00:18:23] Johanna De Ruyter: I collaborate in a theatre company that works with improvisation.

I guess my hat within that is really one of being an elder in the practice and the form. I’ve been doing it now for about 30 years and it’s called Playback Theatre, and it’s a fascinating form where we really collaborate with the audience to create the content of the show. So we draw their stories based on their experiences from life, and that becomes our content that we then improvise around, and that’s with a live musician and for actors to recast that into a theatrical form. So it’s quite a dynamic form and very rich in terms of practices, principles around co-creation. We start with nothing in terms of knowing what we are going to create.

We know we are going to create something, and I would say that is the collaboration process. You’re part of it. We’ve come together cause we know we wanna create something. We have a particular framework that we use to do that and invite input to which we listen and respond and give back. And then we invite a response to the response and we continue.

And that happens between us as a team and the audience. And that audience can be anywhere from 10 up to 300, you know, So there’s a lot of responding. And then that’s between us as a team and the audience. We have a facilitator, and then that’s also happening on stage with the actors and the musician.

There’s a lot of listening and responding in a whole other dimension of what that means in terms of emotions and environment and senses and musicality and content. And at the core that runs through. And I would say this is the core to collaboration full stop is listening, is our ability to listen and respond.

And I think that practice, it is a model for listening. In essence, it’s a rich model for listening cause we listen and respond to anything anyone says, that there’s no judgment about what that is.

[00:20:44] Maya Haviland: One of the valuable things about focusing on the craft and practice of creative forms like role play gaming or Playback Theatre, is it helps us focus on the reality that skills of collaboration are cultivated through practice.

While humans can have huge capacities for collaboration, the skills that make it work really well, like listening, responsiveness, tolerance of the unknown and not innate, as anyone who’s raised up children well understands.

[00:21:11] Johanna De Ruyter: People just assume that we’re like listening that we can collaborate. Dunno where that assumption comes from actually. Well, you can’t really collaborate if you don’t listen, I wouldn’t say, and it makes me think if I go to an improv metaphor at the core, one of the premises that enables improvisation to happen is something called the “yes, and” principle. And it’s about saying “yes” and building on that, saying yes to whatever is offered from the other performer, be it a sound, a word, a movement.

Accept that without judgment and build upon it. When you say no, we call that a block, that can be used strategically at times, but generally nothing will happen from there. Nothing will emerge, Nothing will grow.

[00:21:59] Maya Haviland: The “Yes, and” principle requires a particular quality of listening, as it doesn’t work if you’re planning on what you’re gonna say next, while someone is still talking, as many of us so often do.

[00:22:11] Johanna De Ruyter: A lot of people do think they’re listening, and yet I would say generally and often, we’re not listening to be changed.

And if I think about improvisation or collaborating, we are listening to be changed, to bringing in that “and”, to generating the “and”. Often, and particularly, you know, in a professional context, but not specifically, people you know, listen to solve a problem or to run their agenda, and that’s a common mistake really, or barrier to co-creation.

Personally, I’m always learning about listening and I have been in the practice of learning about listening for a long time, and I’ve continued to learn. The higher the stakes, the more delicate one needs to be and the more thoughtful, I think. It’s about how we’re coming together and how willing we are to listen to be changed and what can get in the way of that.

[00:23:05] Maya Haviland: Listening to be changed is such a lovely phrase to orient us to being responsive and flexible in our approach, to be curious about the unknown. Johanna is a huge advocate of the value of practicing improvisation as a way to cultivate our skills in tolerating and navigating uncertainty, as well as listening.

[00:23:25] Johanna De Ruyter: Within the world as it changes, and we become more global, and there’s so many more layers to how we connect and communicate, yeah, you need to learn to be within the unknown. There’s, what do they call it? Volatile, uncertain, ambiguous, complex forces that we are all existing within, and that’s that again, I have to say, coming back to improv, practicing improv helps you really get comfortable with the unknown and the idea of emergence and letting things just emerge.

Like I’ll step out onto stage, having no idea what I’m going to do. Literally just step out on stage with myself, my body, my breath, the space, and I’ve learned how to listen to all of those dynamic forces that are going on in that moment and to let something emerge and out of that to create a cohesive narrative of some sort.

I am creating theatre and yeah, that takes a lot of practice for people. In my experience of working in with people in organizations for many years, they like to know. Even the possibility of saying, I don’t know, can be frightening for people in organizations and yet the ability to do that is the time of all possibility.

[00:24:49] Nicole Deen: Not everyone is going to participate in improvised theatre or role play games to cultivate their co-creative skills, though these are clearly good places to hone one’s collaborative muscles, if you’re up for it. But what are some different ways that people learn the skills, mindsets, and capabilities for facilitating or participating in co-creativity that we’ve been hearing about?

[00:25:09] Rebecca McNaught: It’s one of those ones where you just have to keep practicing and keep trying, and slowly over time you get better at it.

[00:25:16] Dimitrios Papalexis: For some people it just comes natural. It’s the way they think, the way they work. But also that’s why we talk about unlearning. Go to conference, go to training, join a community of practice, be part of a circle where people share stories.

[00:25:30] Emma Blomkamp: There’s so much to be learned by trying things out, experimenting and reflecting on that. Do more of a project mentoring or coaching approach than actually take part in a course. So the best way is to buddy up with someone more experienced who can help guide you and be a partner in reflective practice for you.

[00:25:53] Natalie Barr: I learned a lot from the politicians I was working for and how they would go about building alliances, working with people, negotiating with stakeholders. It’s really an apprenticeship model where you kind of just learn on the job.

[00:26:07] Michelle Halse: It helps if you’ve got a bent towards being a self-driven learner because there are so many resources out there to plug into. Getting some training and facilitation can be really super helpful.

[00:26:19] David Lilley: I think absolutely any of us can learn. Whether we’ll reach the same, in inverted commas, standard or not, I’m not sure. All of us can learn. All of us can improve. And the other thing that I would add to that, cause I don’t think it’s necessarily about being taught, I think again, it’s experiential learning. It helps to have ideas, concepts, perhaps a bit of literature, but really you’re going to improve when you’re doing it, when you get a sense of how things play out in the real world.

[00:26:49] Nicole Deen: David Lilley’s learning about co-creative practice began in an urban renewal project in Minto, a southern suburb of the city of Sydney, working for a state government department. At the time, he was charged with developing a place management initiative alongside a process of redeveloping social housing in the area.

This work evolved to have a community led governance model overseeing decision making about how resources for things like human services provision and community events and activities would be invested. David is a huge advocate for learning by doing and supporting reflection on experience as a way to fast track insights into collaborative practice.

[00:27:29] David Lilley: I couldn’t have learned what I’ve learned by listening to other people or reading it in a book. It’s just not possible. What I think we can do is prepare people, support people to get through these things much quicker when we’re confronted with them. So when I worked in Minto 15 odd years ago, I was doing this by myself.

My agency let me run the project that I wanted to, but they didn’t really understand it and there was no sort of interest or commitment to providing support. It was just, we’ll let you go, try not to stuff it up. And so, you know, when you do stuff it up, you then spend hours, days, weeks, months, figuring out how to fix it.

For me, the trick is you’ve still gotta let people stuff up, but you want to put support around them so that the stuff ups aren’t as big. The learning’s faster, the resolution of the issues is faster. But I can’t see a way around trial and error learning really. I just think we can do it better.

[00:28:29] Nicole Deen: So what sort of support might be useful for people who are learning by doing as David himself did?

[00:28:35] David Lilley: There’s a number of things. Management support’s great if or when possible, but it’s often not there. Coaching, whether that’s someone internal or external, communities of practice. You know, opportunities for people to come together and share their war stories, you know, and what went wrong and, and how they resolved. Collective problem solving.

Again, it’s one of those things where I don’t think there is an answer. It’s matching whatever you’ve got access to to your situation. I don’t mean that to sound like a cliche, but I think in all of this work, you work with what you’ve got and do the best you can with it. So the first project that I ran in this sort of multi-stakeholder collaboration space was the initiative in Minto.

And as I said I didn’t really have anyone internally who was on the same page as me, but I did have an external mentor if you like, who wasn’t paid, Someone who had an interest in the work and for a time did some paid work with us, came in as an independent facilitator. That was someone, if shit hit the fan, I could ring him, text him, email him, have a coffee with him.

And that was what made the biggest difference to me, was having someone who understood, someone who wasn’t caught up in it like I was, who could give advice, and also someone who wasn’t arrogant. He knew more than I did, but he didn’t tell me what to do. You know, he gave me ideas, he taught things through, he never pretended that he had the answer.

[00:30:08] Nicole Deen: Role play Games Master Callie agrees with David that the main way to learn co-creative skills is through experience.

[00:30:15] Callie Doyle Scott: You could be formally taught how to GM, I could sit you down in a room and explain to you exactly what you need to do to be able to run a game.

And there are helpful guides online. There are video tutorials. I believe there’s an entire category on Skillshare devoted to teaching people how to run games, but there’s a difference between being told how to run a game and actually sitting down at the head of a table with five people staring at you, waiting for you to open up the world for them. It’s like rehearsing for a play and stepping out on the stage for the first time. They’re very different beasts.

To become a GM, you need to run games. It sounds ludicrously simple, but in order to become a good GM, you need to run game after game after game. There is no other way to do it. So you can learn how people react, so you can learn where your strengths lie in description and world building. So you can learn what your players like, so you can make mistakes. You’re going to make so many mistakes. You’re going to bugger up spectacularly when you are GMing for the first time. You’re going to forget statistics. You’re going to put your players in corners. You’re not going to describe situations completely and going to leave your players frustrated.

You are going to mess up. But the only way to get through that is to play through a game and then ask your players, Where did I go wrong? What did I do wrong? What could I do better? And then you run another game. Go slowly. Don’t be afraid of messing up and laughing at yourself.

[00:31:58] Nicole Deen: Johanna De Ruyter also values the playfulness of giving it a go and having a laugh with others as we learn whatever co-creative crafts we’re pursuing.

Her work has led her from the theatre into settings quite distant from the arts. So how does she draw on the skills of improvisation to help people develop skills of co-creativity to apply in settings like the boardroom or the research lab?

[00:32:21] Johanna De Ruyter: Well by teaching their core principles, like the “yes, and” principle, that’s generally where you would start is to understand what that means and then to really practice that.

And I think this is where integrating some improvisational practices in however you teach collaboration is really useful because what happens when you actually start doing that? Like you’ll start to notice different responses that rise up in you . And there’s similar responses that can rise up outside of the context of this exercise.

And so it’s good to have to negotiate that within yourself and develop the awareness of that too. And then to develop a language about what is it and why would I shift that feeling, sensation, perspective? Why would I? If you’re wanting to co-create, then after playing around in these theatre exercises, which are a lot of fun as well, you get to see what could be generated.

What could be generated is a lot of creativity and bonding and clarity, ideas, alignment. Having to go through that rather than just understand intellectually, we need to collaborate, and I think that’s where a lot of collaboration can fall down. It can fall down or disintegrate or be challenging. That there’s a, maybe an intellectual agreement, but actually what goes on in the process, there’s a lot of dynamics at play, you know, and how do you address those?

How do you really work with those? It’s very hard to do it, and that’s where, as I say, getting into action and playing some of these games can help illuminate and unearth those dynamics and do it in a playful way. Start being aware of how you say yes to people, how you don’t, how do you say yes, you know, not judge them.

Listen to be changed, respond from a place of not knowing rather than, Oh, that’s a silly idea and I’m not even gonna bother responding to that. Start to be aware of it in yourself and to shift it and to note, you know, doing really the inner work, it is an internal shift within oneself to shift the relationship between you and others and how we meet others and create those, well, I, I would call them generative relationships.

[00:34:40] Maya Haviland: Generative relationships. It’s really what collaboration is all about, isn’t it? Building relationships that generate new, more imaginative, responsive, creative, innovative possibilities, ideas, or actions.

So cultivating skills to enable and participate in generative relationships is a value to all of us, no matter what kind of creative projects we’re pursuing, whether they’re big or small, personal or professional. Now we’ve only been able to cover just a fraction of the skills for co-creativity people have shared with us, so we’ll plan some future episodes, exploring others down the track. In the meantime, we’d love to hear your reflections on skills you think are most important to co-creativity and how you’ve learned them. Drop us a message on social media and if you’ve found this episode useful, please like it and share with others.

Thanks for listening.

[00:35:33] Nicole Deen: In this episode, you’ve heard the voices of

Natalie Barr: Natalie Barr,

David Lilley: David Lilley,

Dimitrios Papalexis: Dimitrios Papalexis

Kim Cunio: Kim Cunio,

Tirrania Suhood: Tirrania Suhood,

Emma Blomkamp: Emma Blomkamp,

Rebecca McNaught: Rebecca McNaught,

Diana James: Diana James,

Johanna De Ruyter: Johanna De Ruyter,

Anni Doyle Wawrzynczak: Anni Doyle Wawrzynczak

Callie Doyle Scott: Callie Doyle Scott

Doyen Radcliffe: Doyen Radcliffe,

Sharon Babyack: Sharon Babyack

Nicole Deen: and

Michelle Halse: Michelle Halse.


Collaboratory is produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal, Ngambri, and Ngunawal people. We pay our respects and ongoing gratitude to the custodians past, present, and future of the lands on which we work and of the knowledges from which we learn. 

Collaboratory is a production of the Scaffolding Cultural Co-Creativity Project hosted by the Centre for Heritage and Museum Studies in the College of Arts and Social Sciences at the Australian National University. Funding is generously provided by the Australian National University Translational Fellowship scheme.